johnny139
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Tournament Legality - StagesAlright, now, our tournaments here will be more "casual," meaning that stages with minor hazards are okay. As such, I will only be listing ILLEGAL stages. Here's the list:
ILLEGAL STAGESMushroomy Kingdom
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Spear Pillar
Port Town Aero Dive
WarioWare
New Pork City
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
PictoChat
Temple
Rainbow Ride
Big Blue The main problem with these stages is the focus. In most stages, the main focus of the levels is to fight your opponent, with minor problems in the stage. A majority of these are illegal because they alter the focus of the match - for example, WarioWare is as much about winning mini-games as it is about fighting, Big Blue about staying on cars, The Summit about staying out of the water.
Any stages you want legal? Any you want illegal? Opinions?
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Shades fan
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I agree with all of the ones you stated!
I think these should be illegal!
Yoshi’s Island= to small for an actual tournament!
Jungle Japes= This is an odd one that wouldn't be good in tournaments.
I think you covered the rest.
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MetaNite
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I think 75m is okay. Every bad thing can be easily avoided. What's wrong with Brinstar?
I also disagree with the Summit. Staying out of the water is really only a small part of the stage. And it has yet to interupt my fighting, real fighting.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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First off, Yoshi's Island and Jungle Japes are fine. They're small, sure, but that's good for regular 1 vs. 1 matches.
Second, the Summit is annoying. It's easily possible for an opponent to Meteor Smash you into the fish and kill you. I still think it should be allowed, though.
If Brinstar is that lava wave stage like I think it is, it would be fine if it wasn't for the stupid lava wave that comes from the background. That completely changes the stage and makes it that whoever gets to the Capsule first wins.
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MadNik
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Wow, I'm not going to lie, thats a horrible ban list. No offence, I just think its sort of lame that half the stages are removed from tourneys. I can understand the Warioware one, because it does come down to winning the games more than fighting. And they come so often that everyone constantly has invinsibility or something.
But Mushroom Kingdom ban? Rumble Falls? Rainbow Ride? I'm guessing these are banned because the screen slowly moves along with you. That diserves ban? Brinstar... because lava will rise and sting you if you're not on a high platform? If stages are being banned because of little things like that, then how come the Pikmin and Pork City stages aren't banned? They have monsters that will instant K.O. a player. Or the Halberd, since if you're not standing on the platform in the beginning, you get instant K.O.d, along with the fact that the ship fights back.
The point I'm trying to make is that EVERY stage (with the exception of BF and FD) have their own little things that make things a bit more interesting and banning them will just make it seem... limited. One could say that a tournement should be based on skill alone. I could say that it takes skill to be able to dodge the Norfair lava spray and make it into the safe capsule, and that it takes skill to be able to smash somebody into Dialga's Hyper Beam attack.
C'mon, you have to admit its kinda' lame that we're limiting ourselves so much.
And I guess I'm starting to rant here. I'd just like to say, if I do have any say, keep all the stages, they're just as important and unique as the characters.
Except for Warioware...  it does get annoying when someone gets invinsibility every 15 seconds (jk)
And I just took a look at your thread for legal items... I'm just going to say the same thing about them and keep it here. It just adds more to the game.
Please don't hate me!
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johnny139
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I agree, items and stages add a lot to the game. But this is a tournament structure - stages that change the focus of the match from fighting the other players to fighting the stage shouldn't be allowed.
For example - in Mushroomy Kingdom, you do two things - fight other players, and try to keep moving. Norfair, you fight and try and avoid giant walls of lava. It makes the game less about fighting and more about avoiding.
Stages like Halberd are legal because, though there are things that can hurt or even kill you, it's far from the focus of the stage - you continue to fight your opponents and occasionally dodge a lazer or something.
Also, the list has been updated. Brinstar is now legal (a little lava never hurt anyone), and New Pork City is illegal, because it can kill you automatically.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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First off, back on Brinstar. Now that I see Norfair is already on the list, Brinstar can't be the lava one. Thus, I think it should be taken off. Brinstar has an easily dodgable hazard.
As for Madnik's concerns, I disagree. Rumble Falls is DEFINATELY off. That is the most annoying course in the entire game. I never liked the Ice Climber course in Melee, and this is pretty much the exact same thing. The camera doesn't even move slowly... it moves FAST. It also has those stupid spikes that force the stage to be a speed contest rather than a battle. Mushroomy Kingdom is a bad stage on the same basis. The camera simply moves too fast and more time is spent running than doing any real battle. Rainbow Ride is okay when you're on the ship, but anywhere else and then it can get annoying fast, though not nearly as much as the other two.
In summary for that, I hardly think the camera moving is a "small thing". It pratically changes the stage into a running contest.
The Pikman stage has some of the most easily dodgable hazards in the GAME. The Bulbin can only kill you if you stand on it, which is highly unlikely. I have not seen a single person stand on it yet. The water really isn't that bad. The Pikman stage doesn't change the focus of the stage.
As for New Pork City, the Ultimate Chimera is also ridiculously easy to dodge. The stage is so large it is actually hard to get hit by that thing. It's a non-issue, unlike the moving camera.
And the instant kill on the Halberd? That is the stupidest thing I've heard on this thread so far, seriously. I have never seen someone get caught not standing on the platform. The platform is so large it takes skill to NOT be on it.
Also, it doesn't take skill to knock someone into Dialga's hyper beam, it just requires you to use the C-Stick and run away. That isn't skill, it's letting the stage do the work for you. The stages that aren't banned actually DO require skill for you to hit someone into a hazard. On New Pork City, for example, the stage is so large that it's a challenge to knock someone into the Ultimate Chimera, but is extremely awarding if you do because of that largeness.
Basically, all the stages up there except for The Summit completely change the focus of the stage. For example, Warioware has the minigames, the moving camera stages make it a speed contest instead of an actual fight, Pictochat and Flat Zone 2 change far too much and can change the course of the game easily because of extreme randomness (though I haven't really played either, so it's up for debate).
If there's one thing I don't get about the list, it's why the Summit is on it. The Summit's only real hazard is the fish, which only appears about once per battle if you're fast. I also request for New Pork City to be unbanned since I find the Ultimate Chimera to be pathetically easy to dodge.
And at any point in this post, I'm sorry if I sound rude and nasty.
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johnny139
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The Summit... I dunno. I'd hate to lose in the final round of the tournament because I was standing knee-deep in water. I'll wait to see some other opinions before deciding either way.
Same for New Pork City. It IS hard to hit the Ultimate Chimera, but I would hate to lose it all because it spawned near me.
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Lord Pyre
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Rumble Fall should stay banned. That single, stupid spike always kills me... 
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MadNik
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I would go for the whole ban list for tourneys if it was some kind of International championship, with money on the line, or something like that. But its not, its small online tournement involving like... 20 people? If anyone would seriously be upset about being eaten by a fish in the final match of this kind of tourney, how would they react to losing the final match of some huge state tourney or something like that?
And if you think the instant K.O. on Halberd is near impossible, I'll be more than happy to play against you personally, and keep your ass off of that platform.  (JK)
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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| johnny139 wrote: | The Summit... I dunno. I'd hate to lose in the final round of the tournament because I was standing knee-deep in water. I'll wait to see some other opinions before deciding either way.
Same for New Pork City. It IS hard to hit the Ultimate Chimera, but I would hate to lose it all because it spawned near me. |
I usually am able to dodge the fish extremely easily. The Ultimate Chimera is slow and doesn't move at first, so unless by some extreme stroke of luck it spawns on top of you, you should be able to get out of the way. If it does, we'll all laugh for a good five minutes (heck, if I got killed because it spawned on top of me, I would too).
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dragonfire
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| dragonfire wrote: | | Im gonna make my answer simple. I say, everything is allowed. Every item, stage, character. If Sakurai felt they deserve to be in Brawl, who are we to judge? Golden Hammer. Yes its strong. But why is that unfair? It can backfire, and everyone has a chance of getting it, and everyone can run away from it. I think that everything should be fair game, except C sticking, since that ruins the game. |
Also, if you cant move and fight, dont play. A real player adapts.
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Heroic Monkey
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Somebody's going to hate me for this, but should we ban Hanenbow and Temple? I just don't see them as good stages for tournaments. Hanenbow has barely any room to fight...and don't even think about dashing. The Temple has too much room to fight, so the players last much longer. The battle is often carried down to the bottom left, where huge amounts of damage are racked up. It takes little skill to survive down there.
Hope I don't seem like a party pooper. 
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Creationist
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I second having the Summit as a legal stage. The fish is only for a portion of the level, and it doesn't come up as soon as you land.
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Heroic Monkey
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I think the Summit should stay illegal. It's true that the fish doesn't come out as soon as you hit the water, but it's pretty close. It would be especially dangerous if you were in a Pitfall. Even meteor smashing someone down there could cause death to the opponent. It seems like it's just too game-changing.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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Have you played on the map extensively? The fish never even hits anyone most of the time. The situation of using a Pitfall at nearly the EXACT SAME TIME the fish appears is pretty rare and unlikely. Plus, any opponent with sense will simply go to the left side of the screen when you have a Pitfall. The Freezie is hard to get in the first place, never mind that it can fall off The Summit by itself.
As for Hannenbrow and Hyrule Temple, they serve different purposes. We're having 4 player tournaments and 2 player tournaments, I believe, so Hannenbrow is good for the 2 player tournaments, while Hyrule Temple is good for the 4 player ones. Even if we're only having 2 player ones, Hannenbrow should be legal because it's still a good 1 vs. 1 stage.
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Creationist
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I agree with bloody. the fish with trap combo is rare. I have only been eaten by carelesness.
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Heroic Monkey
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Maybe I've just been extremely unlucky because the last few times I've played on the stage, the fish has eaten me whenever I touched the ground. That led me to believe that the fish always eats people...so I guess that's incorrect. Does the fish come at regular intervals, or does it only appear when somebody steps in the danger zone?
Also, Pitfalls can be thrown onto the ground. Then there is no way of knowing where a Pitfall is. When an opponent steps onto the invisible Pitfall trap, they are stuck in the ground. So, if somebody buries the pitfall in the ground, somebody could walk over it without knowing it's there and then be swallowed by the fish. It does seem like a rare situation, though. It would be best just to avoid the floor.
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MadNik
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If any stage is going to be banned, let it be Final Destination , I swear, I hate that stage.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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The Fish appears at regular intervals, as far as I'm aware. You can step in the area it appears without it appearing (it spawns at the right of the stage). Touching it means death, but you can dodge it by going to the left side of the stage.
Also, you can know where a Pitfall on the ground is. How? The same way you avoid a Motion Sensor Bomb - see it get used, and avoid that place.
P.S. I was playing the Co-op challenge where you face 5 R.O.B.s at The Summit and they get larger every time you kill one. Anyways, two of the R.O.B.'s (one small and one gigantic) were killed by touching the fish. The small one was an idiot, and the big one was so big he couldn't avoid the fish. It was funny seeing the fish eat something bigger than it was.
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Heroic Monkey
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| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: |
Also, you can know where a Pitfall on the ground is. How? The same way you avoid a Motion Sensor Bomb - see it get used, and avoid that place. |
Yes, I just meant that the bomb can be physically seen while the Pitfall leaves no sign of its presence.
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MadNik
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| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | The Fish appears at regular intervals, as far as I'm aware. You can step in the area it appears without it appearing (it spawns at the right of the stage). Touching it means death, but you can dodge it by going to the left side of the stage.
Also, you can know where a Pitfall on the ground is. How? The same way you avoid a Motion Sensor Bomb - see it get used, and avoid that place.
P.S. I was playing the Co-op challenge where you face 5 R.O.B.s at The Summit and they get larger every time you kill one. Anyways, two of the R.O.B.'s (one small and one gigantic) were killed by touching the fish. The small one was an idiot, and the big one was so big he couldn't avoid the fish. It was funny seeing the fish eat something bigger than it was. |
I've been eaten on the left side. I don't think its intervals, I think its just if a player stands in the danger zone, fish jumps. And thank you for saying how to dodge the pitfall. Thats what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to step on any toes.
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Heroic Monkey
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| MadNik wrote: | | Thats what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to step on any toes. |
It's ok; I wouldn't get offended if you were just adding information.  I know that it's possible to avoid the Pitfalls if you watch the opponent place them, but I was trying to say that they can't be seen after they're thrown. I'm not sure why I even brought up the Pitfall-fish combo before because if somebody steps on a trap it isn't the stage's fault. I always forget where people put the Pitfalls, so if anybody battles me just kindly throw them off the stage.
I've also been swallowed by the fish on the left side of the stage.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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I've never been eaten on the left side. Then again, I don't battle on the left side much. I'm guessing the Danger Zone is the water and nearby ground, then. Stay in it = fish comes to eat you.
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DarkWolf
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I hate it when the fish eats me.
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johnny139
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Just played a match on the Summit - Me (Samus) vs. CPU (Captain Falcon) vs. CPU (Fox). The Fish killed both of the CPUs, which were only Level 8, twice, because I spiked them into the water. It took only two or three seconds for the fish to jump up and get them, and it happened on both sides.
I think it ate me, once, too... when I was going for a Dragoon piece.
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Witch King of Angmar
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| johnny139 wrote: | Just played a match on the Summit - Me (Samus) vs. CPU (Captain Falcon) vs. CPU (Fox). The Fish killed both of the CPUs, which were only Level 8, twice, because I spiked them into the water. It took only two or three seconds for the fish to jump up and get them, and it happened on both sides.
I think it ate me, once, too... when I was going for a Dragoon piece. |
personally you should test it with people not the with cpu's even if they are on level 8 or 9. I've seen cpu player do some serious errors on level 8-9 that even a rookie player would not do like: On Halberd, on the bottom platform I charged up HRB and begin the swing motion, The computer on the top platform runs to the edge of that platform falls through right into the Bat 
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johnny139
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| Witch King of Angmar wrote: | | johnny139 wrote: | Just played a match on the Summit - Me (Samus) vs. CPU (Captain Falcon) vs. CPU (Fox). The Fish killed both of the CPUs, which were only Level 8, twice, because I spiked them into the water. It took only two or three seconds for the fish to jump up and get them, and it happened on both sides.
I think it ate me, once, too... when I was going for a Dragoon piece. |
personally you should test it with people not the with cpu's even if they are on level 8 or 9. I've seen cpu player do some serious errors on level 8-9 that even a rookie player would not do like: On Halberd, on the bottom platform I charged up HRB and begin the swing motion, The computer on the top platform runs to the edge of that platform falls through right into the Bat |
I don't know anyone who plays SSB. Well, one person. But he sucks... to be honest, a CPU (or even my little sister) is better at the game than him.
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Darkdrium
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Super Mario Bros should be illegal.
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Witch King of Angmar
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| RayChaos wrote: | | Super Mario Bros should be illegal. |
Very True
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Heroic Monkey
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I completely agree, RayChaos. The Super Mario Bros. stage changes the focus from fighting to throwing the creatures that come out of the pipes. It's a very insane, hectic level.
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Darkdrium
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Maybe Mario Circuit too.
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Witch King of Angmar
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| RayChaos wrote: | | Maybe Mario Circuit too. |
Their I disagree, The karts are not really a danger but a nuisance
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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How could I forget about Mario Bros.? That is an awful stage. My issue with it isn't the creatures, its that Mario Bros. is basically the Fight Club in Hyrule Temple... no matter where you fight. You basically collide with the floors until you get hit. Not fun at all.
I disagree with Mario Kart. I hate that stage, but it's a pet peeve more than anything else.
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MetaNite
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I agree about the Mario Bros. It's more of dodge the creatures than fighting.
I like the shape and playing field of Mario Kart. The karts are easily dodged.
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Darkdrium
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| MetaNite wrote: | I agree about the Mario Bros. It's more of dodge the creatures than fighting.
I like the shape and playing field of Mario Kart. The karts are easily dodged. |
Yeah but you can still easilty get hit into them.
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Lord Pyre
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| Darkdrium wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | I agree about the Mario Bros. It's more of dodge the creatures than fighting.
I like the shape and playing field of Mario Kart. The karts are easily dodged. |
Yeah but you can still easilty get hit into them. |
The thing is, is that they don't exactly do much damage.
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johnny139
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| Lord Pyre wrote: | | Darkdrium wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | I agree about the Mario Bros. It's more of dodge the creatures than fighting.
I like the shape and playing field of Mario Kart. The karts are easily dodged. |
Yeah but you can still easilty get hit into them. |
The thing is, is that they don't exactly do much damage. |
Minimal damage, minimal knockback. Plus, it's REALLY easy to kill them. And fun. 
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DarkWolf
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| johnny139 wrote: | | Lord Pyre wrote: | | Darkdrium wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | I agree about the Mario Bros. It's more of dodge the creatures than fighting.
I like the shape and playing field of Mario Kart. The karts are easily dodged. |
Yeah but you can still easily get hit into them. |
The thing is, is that they don't exactly do much damage. |
Minimal damage, minimal knockback. Plus, it's REALLY easy to kill them. And fun. |
Yup yup. ^_^
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Darkdrium
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True.
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Lord Pyre
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Of course it's true; we said it.
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DarkWolf
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| Lord Pyre wrote: |
Of course it's true; we said it. |
Totally.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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How come the Mario Bros. stage hasn't been banned yet? That is a highly annoying and horrid stage.
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johnny139
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| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | | How come the Mario Bros. stage hasn't been banned yet? That is a highly annoying and horrid stage. |
Added.
Also, I'm contemplating banning Temple, as it's really big, and Port City, because a car jumped up OFF the track and K.O.'d me at about 50%. Opinions?
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MadNik
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Ban Final Destination... worst stage ever.
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Heroic Monkey
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| johnny139 wrote: |
Also, I'm contemplating banning Temple, as it's really big, and Port City, because a car jumped up OFF the track and K.O.'d me at about 50%. Opinions? |
I agree with Temple. I haven't noticed problems with Port City, but if cars go off the track then I won't have problems with it being banned.
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Shades fan
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| Heroic Monkey wrote: | | johnny139 wrote: |
Also, I'm contemplating banning Temple, as it's really big, and Port City, because a car jumped up OFF the track and K.O.'d me at about 50%. Opinions? |
I agree with Temple. I haven't noticed problems with Port City, but if cars go off the track then I won't have problems with it being banned. |
Yes even though Hyrule Temple is my favorite map,there is also that little space that if a landmaster is summoned it can't get to you.
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MetaNite
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| Shades fan wrote: | | Heroic Monkey wrote: | | johnny139 wrote: |
Also, I'm contemplating banning Temple, as it's really big, and Port City, because a car jumped up OFF the track and K.O.'d me at about 50%. Opinions? |
I agree with Temple. I haven't noticed problems with Port City, but if cars go off the track then I won't have problems with it being banned. |
Yes even though Hyrule Temple is my favorite map,there is also that little space that if a landmaster is summoned it can't get to you. |
I just run in a circle around the center part and the bottom. I don't think we should ban. I think we should ban Port City though. I remember all 3 of us died at the same time!
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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About Hyrule, I agree for 2 player matches. In 4 player matches, it's fine. In 2 player, however, it's wayyy too large.
I, again, haven't noticed any problems with New Pork City. The car goes off the course, but only at the bottom and I've never seen someone die from it. Then again, I haven't played Wi-Fi, but I have played some other good human players who have never died from the car.
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DarkWolf
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Well, I don't really like Pork City, pretty big and annoying and these 1 hit KO monsters. But that's my opinion, and it still could be fine, but I'd have no problem if it was banned... or if it's not banned.
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Heroic Monkey
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We were talking about Port City (the F-Zero level), not New Pork City.
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johnny139
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I got confused for a minute... though if we banned both Cities, things would be simplified.
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Shades fan
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| johnny139 wrote: | | I got confused for a minute... though if we banned both Cities, things would be simplified. |
I agree. As long as we don't have stages that can kill you quickly with moving screens I am more then willing to sacrafice thoughs stages. The quicker we get this decided the quicker we can have a tournament.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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I haven't run into the problem of Port City either. I've always been of the opinion to not have either banned, and I remain that way.
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DarkWolf
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| johnny139 wrote: | | I got confused for a minute... though if we banned both Cities, things would be simplified. |
Yeah, I got confused too... well let's just ban both of them and get it over with and simplify it and stuff xD
Well, I think Port City is fine, though... I haven't had much trouble with it, though it is kinda annoying.
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Sup3rS0n1c
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yea, i've been wondering... New Pork City should be banned for the SAME reason as temple(minus the anti-landmaster spot), and the ultimate chimera. It is easy to avoid, but if someone gets stunned or knocked into it, it IS a little cheap...
Edit: Wait, is New Pork City already banned? There's no poll for it...
Damn.
Man, maybe i should make a poll. If you are reading this, johnny, plz tell me if its okay to make one(or make one yourself )
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