johnny139
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Tournament Legality - ItemsAlright, now, our tournaments here will be more "casual," meaning that items that don't give a massive advantage to anyone are allowed.
LEGAL ITEMSBunny Hood
Banana Peel
Barrel
Beam Sword
Bumper
Capsule
Crate
Fan
Fire Flower
Food
Freezie
Green Shell
Gooey Bomb
Hothead
Lip's Stick
Metal Box
Motion Sensor Bomb
Mr. Saturn
Pitfall
Poison Mushroom
Ray Gun
Sandbag
Screw Attack
Smash Ball
Smoke Ball
Soccer Ball
Spring
Star Rod
Super Mushroom
Super Scope
Team Healer
Unira
Warp Star All of these items either provide a minor power-up, have significant risk in using, or need skill to fight correctly with. As such, I'm of the opinion they should be allowed in our tournaments, though if any seem too powerful, please say so.
ILLEGAL ITEMSAssist Trophy Capsule
Blast Box
Bob-omb
Cracker Launcher
Deku Nut
Dragoon
Franklin Badge
Golden Hammer
Hammer
Heart Container
Homerun Bat
Lightning
Maxim Tomato
Poke Ball
Ray Gun
Smart Bomb
Starman
Superspicy Curry
Timer These items may have a small chance at backfiring occationally, but otherwise, are far too powerful and give a single player massive advantage. Illegal, IMO, though please bring up any disagreements.
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Shades fan
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Assist Trophy Capsule=Allowed
Bob-omb= Allowed
Bumper=Allowed
Dragoon=Disallowed
Freezie=Allowed
Green Shell=Allowed
Homerun Bat=Allowed
Poke Ball=Allowed
Super Scope=Diallowed
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MetaNite
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Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal.
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Shades fan
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| MetaNite wrote: | Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal. |
Any reason for making Pokeballs disallowed. They are random if thats why but I think they are important to gameplay.
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MetaNite
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| Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal. |
Any reason for making Pokeballs disallowed. They are random if thats why but I think they are important to gameplay. |
No, they are random. How they important for gameplay? If you're thinking as important as I think your thinking, like smash ball level, then I think you are wrong.
I think they are cheap.
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Shades fan
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| MetaNite wrote: | | Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal. |
Any reason for making Pokeballs disallowed. They are random if thats why but I think they are important to gameplay. |
No, they are random. How they important for gameplay? If you're thinking as important as I think your thinking, like smash ball level, then I think you are wrong.
I think they are cheap. |
I know they are random which is why I think they are important to gameplay. They add a certain level of luck which is needed for a tournament, if their isn't any luck factors the more casual players that
don't get to play as often as you or me ,or are a good as you or me will be blown out of the water by the people who play this all the time.
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MetaNite
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| Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | | Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal. |
Any reason for making Pokeballs disallowed. They are random if thats why but I think they are important to gameplay. |
No, they are random. How they important for gameplay? If you're thinking as important as I think your thinking, like smash ball level, then I think you are wrong.
I think they are cheap. |
I know they are random which is why I think they are important to gameplay. They add a certain level of luck which is needed for a tournament, if their isn't any luck factors the more casual players that
don't get to play as often as you or me ,or are a good as you or me will be blown out of the water by the people who play this all the time. |
But isn't that sort of like the whole point of a tournamen? I wouldn't mind a random factor or luck factor, but I'd prefer something other than pokeballs. There's assist trophies, smash balls, and many other items that may have a random effect.
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Shades fan
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| MetaNite wrote: | | Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | | Shades fan wrote: | | MetaNite wrote: | Super Scope should be aloud. So should motion sensor. There's strategy to that and its not just throw and die.
I think dragoon should be disallowed. It takes away from the fighting and provides a cheap hit.
I think Assist trophies, and pokeballs should be disallowed and bom-ombs and bumbers should be made legal. |
Any reason for making Pokeballs disallowed. They are random if thats why but I think they are important to gameplay. |
No, they are random. How they important for gameplay? If you're thinking as important as I think your thinking, like smash ball level, then I think you are wrong.
I think they are cheap. |
I know they are random which is why I think they are important to gameplay. They add a certain level of luck which is needed for a tournament, if their isn't any luck factors the more casual players that
don't get to play as often as you or me ,or are a good as you or me will be blown out of the water by the people who play this all the time. |
But isn't that sort of like the whole point of a tournamen? I wouldn't mind a random factor or luck factor, but I'd prefer something other than pokeballs. There's assist trophies, smash balls, and many other items that may have a random effect. |
Ok I will agree with you on the pokeballs. I am happy as long as the instant kill effects are out of the Tournament and the bombs are in it.. I think that most of us here have enough play time to not need pokeballs.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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Here are my votes for the undecided, as well as reasons:
Assist Trophy Capsule: Disallowed. Most of them can K.O. an opponent with little to no effort, which is pretty unfair.
Bob-omb: I'm probably going to get flogged for this, but I'm voting for a disallowing of this. This can potentially K.O. in one hit, and if it doesn't, then it still does high amounts of damage.
Bumper: Allowed. This is a very fun item, and while it has some knockback, getting hit by this isn't the most common thing in the world.
Dragoon: Disallowed, easily. The three parts requirement isn't an issue when you can simply damage the enemy and knock the Dragoon parts out. This is pretty much a one hit K.O. with no consequence at all.
Freezie: Allowed. It is hard to get this item since it moves, and when you do get it, it's not even garunteed to hit. If it does, I don't find it too unbalancing, honestly.
Green Shell: Allowed. It is a simple throwing item, and the reflection doesn't happen too often.
Homerun Bat: Disallowed. With some of the items we have, such as the Pitfall, the opponent can hardly do anything while you bat them into oblivion. It's not a risk I'm going to take.
Poke Ball: Disallowed, for much the same reason as the Assist Trophy.
Super Scope: Allowed. There really isn't any reason not to allow this. It's rapid fire, but it's dodgable and doesn't do much damage and the charge is easily dodged.
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Heroic Monkey
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I agree with Bloody, except for the Freezie. In my opinion, it should be banned because it's basically a knockout if the enemy has ~60 or more percent (just a rough estimate). If the opponent survives the ice, a smash can be charged up and unleashed when the character is freed.
It's not a big deal if we do allow Freezies in the tournaments. It's not as gamechanging as other things like the Dragoon.
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Lord Pyre
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Yeah, keep the Dragoon out. It's easy to dodge, but fighting for the pieces is just annoying...
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dragonfire
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Im gonna make my answer simple. I say, everything is allowed. Every item, stage, character. If Sakurai felt they deserve to be in Brawl, who are we to judge? Golden Hammer. Yes its strong. But why is that unfair? It can backfire, and everyone has a chance of getting it, and everyone can run away from it. I think that everything should be fair game, except C sticking, since that ruins the game.
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Heroic Monkey
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I play with all items and stages on when I'm playing normally, and it's a lot of fun. However, if we are playing a tournament the battle should be mostly skill-based, which is why we are filtering out the items that go against that.
| dragonfire wrote: | | I think that everything should be fair game, except C sticking, since that ruins the game. |
How does C-sticking ruin the game?
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Trav11111
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| Heroic Monkey wrote: | | dragonfire wrote: | | I think that everything should be fair game, except C sticking, since that ruins the game. |
How does C-sticking ruin the game? |
Better yet how would you moniter it? The game is made that if you use the easy way it won't always help. C-stick is weaker then charging the smash, and if you use one move over and over again it gets weaker.
As for the items and stages they should be limited in tournaments. Then it's about skill.
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johnny139
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| dragonfire wrote: | | Im gonna make my answer simple. I say, everything is allowed. Every item, stage, character. If Sakurai felt they deserve to be in Brawl, who are we to judge? Golden Hammer. Yes its strong. But why is that unfair? It can backfire, and everyone has a chance of getting it, and everyone can run away from it. I think that everything should be fair game, except C sticking, since that ruins the game. |
Anything that takes the focus off of fighting shouldn't be allowed in a fighting tournament. Golden Hammer, for example, removes the focus in multiple ways - A) the rush to grab it, B) running away from someone, and C) running away from others if it turns out to be squeaky.
See what I mean? If someone grabs a Golden Hammer, the match is no longer about fighting, it's about running away from the guy with the Golden Hammer.
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Lord Pyre
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And sure, I love playing with all items (Except for that stupid dragoon.... So annoying...  ) but if you're about to win a tournament, would you like it if a bomb all of a sudden fell on your head?
Think of it this way: You're in a tournament. There a good prize for the winner. You're doing exceptionally well, and get to the finals. It's down to one life each, and your opponent has 150%, while you have 50%. Then, a golden hammer spawns right near your opponent, and he KO's you. You had the clear advantage, but there is no way to grab that hammer before him. In the end, he wins because of luck.
I, personally, would hate that. If I'm just playing with some friends just for fun, that would be great. Just not for tournaments.
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MadNik
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| Lord Pyre wrote: |
I, personally, would hate that. If I'm just playing with some friends just for fun, that would be great. Just not for tournaments. |
Isn't that what this tournement is for? Fun? I agree that would be rather unfortunate for the hammer to spawn next to your opponent. But its not like we're playing for a real prize or something, fun is all we have, right? Unless someone wants to put their life on the line... that might make things more interesting...
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Lord Pyre
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Admit it, you want that shiny picture of a wrestling belt with the Brawl and Heroscape symbol on it as much as I do. 
Hehe...
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MadNik
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| Lord Pyre wrote: | Admit it, you want that shiny picture of a wrestling belt with the Brawl and Heroscape symbol on it as much as I do.
Hehe... |
Oh, no one ever said it was a good idea...
HELL YEAH I WANT IT! BAN EVERYTHING! 
Edit: I didn't put a heroscape symbol on it, does Heroscape have one? I can still put one on if it does.
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Lord Pyre
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I couldn't remember what was all on it, and I couldn't find what topic it was in....
You know that symbol on the back of glyphs? I always figured that was the HS symbol.
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MadNik
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| Lord Pyre wrote: | I couldn't remember what was all on it, and I couldn't find what topic it was in....
You know that symbol on the back of glyphs? I always figured that was the HS symbol. |
I guess so. Maybe, I'll add that in sometime soon. And its in the Bracket thread for the tourney.
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MetaNite
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I was going to give the winner the title: TOURNEY WINNER!
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Lord Pyre
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What? That's it???
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MadNik
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I don't know, if I win I'm wearing that belt all around the threads
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Heroic Monkey
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I changed my mind...I don't think Freezies are too powerful. They don't have as much knockback as I thought. The opponent will also usually break out of the ice before the Freezie-user can get a finishing hit in.
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Witch King of Angmar
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Personally the Normal Hammer has enough chance of backfire that it should be allowed. Personally most SSB items should be allowed.
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Witch King of Angmar
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Also to add the Ray Gun is more spamtacular than the hammer and is just as bad as the cracker, It takes little skill
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DarkWolf
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| Witch King of Angmar wrote: | | Personally the Normal Hammer has enough chance of backfire that it should be allowed. Personally most SSB items should be allowed. |
yeah sometimes when I get the Normal Hammer I don't really like it, I still get beat up a lot and I can't do anything and barely jump at all.
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johnny139
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Alright, I've decided where the items I was undecided on should all go. Point out any an all grievances and we can get this show on the road.
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Firemaster
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I'm a bit iffy on the Ray Gun. It is fairly easy to time the shots so the opponent gets knocked off the screen.
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Heroic Monkey
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I'm unsure about the Ray Gun too. I'm going to see if it's possible to DI out of the laser shots so I can form an opinion on this.
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Firemaster
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One other I'm a bit iffy about as well is the Pitfall. Not for what it is used for on the ground, that is fine. It is what it does when it hits someone in the air that's the problem.
If you hit someone with a Pitfall while they're in the air, they get spiked down really fast. So if you knock someone off the stage and then hit them with a pitfall, it's a guaranteed kill (and it's not all that hard to do, IMO).
Other than that and the Ray Gun, everything looks good.
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Heroic Monkey
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Oh my gosh, Firemaster! You stole the words right out of my mouth again! I was going to talk about the Pitfall but decided not to because I didn't want to start an argument or seem too picky. Other than those two items, the list looks good to me.
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johnny139
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| Firemaster wrote: | | If you hit someone with a Pitfall while they're in the air, they get spiked down really fast. So if you knock someone off the stage and then hit them with a pitfall, it's a guaranteed kill (and it's not all that hard to do, IMO). |
If you can hit a moving target in the air with a Pitfall, you're a better Smasher than I. Then again, I suck.
As for Ray Gun... I could see the argument. I'll wait to see what the people who are better than me decide before putting things up either way.
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Firemaster
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| johnny139 wrote: | | If you can hit a moving target in the air with a Pitfall, you're a better Smasher than I. Then again, I suck. |
It's not really that hard, just knock them slightly off the edge, then throw the Pitfall.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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With what? Let's take R.O.B. for example. I have a Pitfall. How do I knock them off the edge? My Up-B doesn't do damage, my Side-B has little to no knockback, using any A move whatsoever will cause me to throw the Pitfall and waste it, and the throw will simply cause him to fling it over the edge. That means I can only knock him off the edge with two of my moves, never mind the fact that those two moves are easy to dodge on their own. The Pitfall combo can only be done with certain characters that have B-Moves that are reliable hitters. R.O.B.'s are reliable, but only in conjunction with his other moves or when the enemy is distracted fighting someone else. When he has the Pitfall, he'll have neither luxury (since, presumably, a sensible opponent would actually ATTACK R.O.B. when he has the Pitfall and not the other way around).
As for the Ray Gun, I don't have much expierience with it when attacking, but a simple fast air fall combined with a Robo-Burner will enable me to avoid it by going to the other side of the stage and grabbing the ledge.
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Lord Pyre
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| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | With what? Let's take R.O.B. for example. I have a Pitfall. How do I knock them off the edge? My Up-B doesn't do damage, my Side-B has little to no knockback, using any A move whatsoever will cause me to throw the Pitfall and waste it, and the throw will simply cause him to fling it over the edge. That means I can only knock him off the edge with two of my moves, never mind the fact that those two moves are easy to dodge on their own. The Pitfall combo can only be done with certain characters that have B-Moves that are reliable hitters. R.O.B.'s are reliable, but only in conjunction with his other moves or when the enemy is distracted fighting someone else. When he has the Pitfall, he'll have neither luxury (since, presumably, a sensible opponent would actually ATTACK R.O.B. when he has the Pitfall and not the other way around).
As for the Ray Gun, I don't have much expierience with it when attacking, but a simple fast air fall combined with a Robo-Burner will enable me to avoid it by going to the other side of the stage and grabbing the ledge. |
Down B has good knock back.
Or you could just knock them off, then grab it and throw, depending on how close it is.
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Heroic Monkey
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The Pitfall should be picked up after the opponent is knocked the stage. Protecting it from the enemy's reach is important so that they don't use it on you. The other possibility is that the player knocks the enemy off the stage, and then a pitfall spawns, so then he/she picks it up and throws it. I've seen both of these situations several times.
| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | | The Pitfall combo can only be done with certain characters that have B-Moves that are reliable hitters. |
The fact that it can be done with any character is enough of a reason for the Pitfall to be banned (in my opinion).
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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| Lord Pyre wrote: | | Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | With what? Let's take R.O.B. for example. I have a Pitfall. How do I knock them off the edge? My Up-B doesn't do damage, my Side-B has little to no knockback, using any A move whatsoever will cause me to throw the Pitfall and waste it, and the throw will simply cause him to fling it over the edge. That means I can only knock him off the edge with two of my moves, never mind the fact that those two moves are easy to dodge on their own. The Pitfall combo can only be done with certain characters that have B-Moves that are reliable hitters. R.O.B.'s are reliable, but only in conjunction with his other moves or when the enemy is distracted fighting someone else. When he has the Pitfall, he'll have neither luxury (since, presumably, a sensible opponent would actually ATTACK R.O.B. when he has the Pitfall and not the other way around).
As for the Ray Gun, I don't have much expierience with it when attacking, but a simple fast air fall combined with a Robo-Burner will enable me to avoid it by going to the other side of the stage and grabbing the ledge. |
Down B has good knock back.
Or you could just knock them off, then grab it and throw, depending on how close it is. |
Down-B has good knock-back, but I already said that. However, it's easily predictable when you have a Pitfall. Just jump above the R.O.B. player and he'll never hit you with an attack while you have the Pitfall.
Also, it can be done with any character, but not only do you have to protect it from the enemy, which can be very difficult if we're playing 4 player tournaments (remember, we play both those and two player ones), you have to hope someone doesn't steal your kill while you're setting up.
It's situations like this I kind of wish we had a list for items banned in certain types of tournaments. I think the Pitfall is qualifiable for that list (2 player tournament banned, specifically). In a four player match, I find it hard to believe that you're going to get it off with no mistake. Once they see you go for it, they'll gang up on you and someone else will take it and attempt to kill you in return after he gets the living stuffing beat out of him.
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Heroic Monkey
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I think the Pitfall should be banned in both 1v1 and 4-player matches. I've explained my reasons for 1v1 above. For 4-player battles, people have teammates to knock opponents off the stage. This allows the player to jump in and throw it at the person.
A lot of it depends on where and when the Pitfall spawns. It's a very powerful item if it spawns at a favorable place and moment.
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MadNik
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Wow, this is the first time I've looked at this thread in a while. Are we seriously banning pitfall?...
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MetaNite
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I don't think we should ban it. Normally when you throw it at the ground, you may forget where it is.
For the air thing, its hard. You have to have a pitfall, you have to get the opponent off the edge, and then you have to aim good.
Why is the smashball legal? Who ever gets it is almost garenteed to use it right since it's a one on one match.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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The Smash Ball is legal because it takes skill to use most of them, and that they are all different from each other. Let's take R.O.B.'s. It isn't an instant kill, it's a Superspicy Curry that makes you invincible. So naturally, you use it differently then say, Link's. With Link's, you instead have to aim it and fire away, but it is fairly difficult to aim. Banning the Smash Ball is like banning a part of a character's moveset, which is silly. Plus, you have to attack it first, and if they get it, you can always knock it out of them by hitting them hard.
Heroic Monkey, you're saying that in a 2 vs. 2 match, you honestly expect that one guy can somehow keep one guy away from you and knock another off a cliff so you can hit him while STILL having to be covered by the guy without the pitfall? That's not only extremely difficult, it will only result in the K.O. of one guy, and the poor guy who had to do the work of defending you is likely near-dead, making him awfully easy to K.O. When you try to do that, you'll quickly find out it's basically 2 vs. 1, and we all know how that turns out.
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Witch King of Angmar
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You can dodge a thrown pitfall/items I think that balances out its use for downing potential
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Heroic Monkey
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| Heroic Monkey wrote: | | I'm unsure about the Ray Gun too. I'm going to see if it's possible to DI out of the laser shots so I can form an opinion on this. |
I tried it today and couldn't seem to DI out of the Ray Gun's shots.
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MetaNite
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| Heroic Monkey wrote: | | Heroic Monkey wrote: | | I'm unsure about the Ray Gun too. I'm going to see if it's possible to DI out of the laser shots so I can form an opinion on this. |
I tried it today and couldn't seem to DI out of the Ray Gun's shots. |
I usually just jump over the shots or sheild, or with some characters I can even duck. I think it should be legal.
I also send three people the match that shows why I think the super scope should be illegal. Even if that one guy wasn't smart enough to turn around.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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Also, Heroic Monkey, I'm sure you haven't tried Air-Dodging based on how fiercely you are advocating these two items to be banned. You can only throw a Pitfall once, so you can Air-Dodge it easily, and the Ray Gun can be Air-Dodged until it runs out of ammo.
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johnny139
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Mmm. Air-dodging no longer ends your jumps and causes you to go limp, so there's no real excuse to be Pitfall'd to death unless your opponent has MASSIVE skill. And if they have massive skill, they deserve to win.
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Creationist
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I think the bat should be legal. It takes a bit of skill to make it connect with full power, and someone skilled enough to do that should be rewarded with the home-run.
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Heroic Monkey
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Sorry. I wasn't trying to defend the items in a fierce way. If you want them in, that's fine. 
| Creationist wrote: | | I think the bat should be legal. It takes a bit of skill to make it connect with full power, and someone skilled enough to do that should be rewarded with the home-run. |
It's really powerful if someone gets stuck in a Pitfall. When it's thrown at the enemy it does about 20% damage and the knockback is pretty high. I think that's why we have it on the ban list right now.
Also, what frequency should we set for the items?
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Shades fan
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I still think the Bomb-Bomb should be legal. Yes it can kill someone but it takes a lot of skill to use one properly and even then you could kill yourself.
I guess it depends on the type of Tournament you would have,for one with some stock ,yes they should be involved. I would like the idea of having 5 Stock for the tournament. Then this list would be a lot easier.
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johnny139
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| Shades fan wrote: | I still think the Bomb-Bomb should be legal. Yes it can kill someone but it takes a lot of skill to use one properly and even then you could kill yourself.
I guess it depends on the type of Tournament you would have,for one with some stock ,yes they should be involved. I would like the idea of having 5 Stock for the tournament. Then this list would be a lot easier. |
But you shouldn't be able to ACCIDENTALY kill yourself. The problem with Bob-ombs isn't that you can kill someone with it easily, it's that you can ACCIDENTALLY kill YOURSELF easily.
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Bloody the Marro Stinger
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Plus, if no one picks it up in time, it basically removes all fighting from a platform. In other words, if no one picks it up, the fight suddendly becomes "escape from the platform with Bom-Ombs on it!"
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DarkWolf
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| Bloody the Marro Stinger wrote: | | Plus, if no one picks it up in time, it basically removes all fighting from a platform. In other words, if no one picks it up, the fight suddendly becomes "escape from the platform with Bom-Ombs on it!" |
Yeah... nicely said, Bloody.
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Heroic Monkey
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I think we should decide on item frequency as well. Maybe another poll should be started for it?
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johnny139
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| Heroic Monkey wrote: | | I think we should decide on item frequency as well. Maybe another poll should be started for it? |
...low. Didn't we agree on that already?
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MetaNite
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| johnny139 wrote: | | Heroic Monkey wrote: | | I think we should decide on item frequency as well. Maybe another poll should be started for it? |
...low. Didn't we agree on that already? |
I thought we agreed on medium. I don't really care, as long as its not none or high in this tourney.
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